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I like the idea of an Underdark run - Mike Mearls' article at the Wizards site about converting AD&D adventures into the 4E paradigm (e.g. combining multiple rooms' worth of monsters into one encounter, using skill challenges to handle dungeoneering tactics) have been intriguing, and it'd be awesome to get some use out of my D series modules.

How does the first week in September look for folks? Any night but Thursday ought to be possible for me.

Re: Running a 4E One-Shot by TavisAllisonTavisAllison, 1216811228|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I'm down for something "paragon level." I've never really played a game on other planes, or in the Underdark, and have never squared off against Mind Flayers, Beholders, Drow, Demons, Umber Hulks, etc. So fighting some of the iconic monsters might be more interesting than wading through another 3d6 kobolds.

Re: Running a 4E One-Shot by James_NostackJames_Nostack, 1216759051|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I wish to be in-penciled. Perhaps I shall play a half-halfling. Would that be a quarterling?

You could be a dwarfling, with a 90% chance to hide within your own facial hair. But no respect for your loyal retainers "Fingers" and William?

Re: Session 4: Aug 2, Aug 4, Aug 19? by James_NostackJames_Nostack, 1216738912|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Paladin in hell sounds kickass, but possibly a bit overwhelming as a 4ed adventure for me! Sorry I've been absent, I've been bitten back in the ass by WoW, and just learned my 4th edition books recently shipped. I know you've never met me, so you don't know exactly how terrible playing with me can be, but hopefully this can still happen sometime, cause it sounds cool.

Re: Running a 4E One-Shot by skatayskatay, 1216738747|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I wish to be in-penciled. Perhaps I shall play a half-halfling. Would that be a quarterling?

Re: Session 4: Aug 2, Aug 4, Aug 19? by QuendalonQuendalon, 1216695966|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Pencil me in for either a Selphy or a Von Hercules.

Re: Session 4: Aug 2, Aug 4, Aug 19? by skatayskatay, 1216663595|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

OK - I think I can do that. Threshold is a more interesting place than I'd first assumed; I just hope I can flesh some of it out in time.

Re: Session 4: Aug 2, Aug 4, Aug 19? by James_NostackJames_Nostack, 1216574904|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

That Erol Otus drawing has me sold on putting Bargle's head on our mantlepiece!

Re: Session 4: Aug 2, Aug 4, Aug 19? by TavisAllisonTavisAllison, 1216496054|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Session 4: Aug 2, Aug 4, Aug 19? by Invincible OverlordInvincible Overlord, 1216492212|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Tavis, I'm not especially aware of literary influences for the Acid Fantasy style, though I'd guess Moorcock's stuff, particularly Elric, would be an influence, (and maybe Zelazny's Amber?). Nifft the Lean certainly hits on this too; Wagner's Bloodstone is definitely on this list, though I haven't read the others in the series. Witherwing is another example.

But probably this is just the overall 1970's culture: a mish-mash of rock music (infected with Tolkien imagery in late 60's), comic books (veering desperately away from superheroes in the early 70's to do sci-fi, horror, and fantasy stuff), proto-Star Wars sci-fi movies, whatever was left of New Wave sci-fi literature, martial arts fever, etc.

Re: A Potentially Radical Departure by James_NostackJames_Nostack, 1216473452|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Okay, so it looks like we've got E.T., Invincible Overlord, and Tavis for August 2, and Zulgyan if he's around. Here are some "open quests" at the moment.

  • Cleanse the ruins of Threshold from Bargle the Warlock's gang of thieves, murderers, and monsters. These creatures have been living on the edge of town, and may in time challenge the local authorities. It seems that Bargle has exerted a malign, magical influence over Sir Froderic. Kristof the Snitch, rescued from the Lost Mine a few weeks ago, might be able to identify some hazards.
  • Escape from the Witherwood - (this is an in medias res thing, perhaps a good way to introduce a completely different set of characters or maybe some henchmen) - you've been captured and held for ransom by Renata the Robber's gang of thieves, who prey on the local farmers and the trade caravans. Can you get out in one piece? Can you claim the bounty on Renata's head? Can you ensure Threshold's food supply for another perilous season by getting rid of these vultures?
  • Investigate Flood Control Dam No. 3 - after the Dragon Army was routed, many goblin clans retreated to this area, dwelling within the Dwarf-built catacombs and machinery. Belrain the Sword-Singer distrusts the build up of Goblin forces, and needs a team of adventurers to reconnoiter the place and determine the goblins' full strength, so that Lord Stefan can mount a proper defense of the town.
  • Rescue the Dwarf Lord Heimdall from the Steachwarrens - records taken from the Lost Mine indicate that Heimdall, the epic hero of the Dwarven people, is still alive and kept in captivity deep beneath the Dwarves' ancestral home, now a twisted and accursed underworld mega-dungeon. Rescuing Heimdall has become a cause celebre among the Dwarves of the river valley, who are massing in Threshold for the mission. Heimdall's claim of sovereignty over this region, however, might prove inconvenient to Lord Stefan but very helpful to his enemy Cardinal Ludwig.
  • Use the Magic Portal within Rary's Tower: the leader of the Wizard's Cabal, Mordenkainen, was somehow transported to a distant plane through Rary's magic. If Mordenkainen could return, it would unify the Cabal and bring peace among the feuding magicians. Eyewitnesses say that Belrain the Sword-Singer decapitated Rary in the Battle of Threshold, but rumors persist of activity within his brooding fortress. Bargle once studied under Rary, and in his reduced circumstances he may try to fall back here to replenish his power.
  • Travel to the Shrine of the Oracle. This shrine, once dedicated to the Great Builder, has fallen into sinister hands of the Chaos Cultists. Its divination magic could be helpful, either to adventurers or to political patrons. (Adventurers have speculated that the Oracle could point the way to the Ohnefrau Vault.) Elizabeth the Augur, a priestess of the Trickster, may seek escorts on the dangerous journey to the location.
  • Return to the Lost Mine. After perpetual peril in the Grotto of Doom, a hardier band of adventurers might voyage deeper into the mine. (Warning: probably not a full night's worth of adventure left.)
Re: Session 4: Aug 2, Aug 4, Aug 19? by James_NostackJames_Nostack, 1216471705|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I'm nowhere near that level of Tolkien scholarship, but I certainly dig the desire to root around in the obscure corners of classic fantasy & see what pops up. I've really enjoyed playing in Greyhawk because one of the other players is an expert - I can say "Okay, what's the story on this thing over here", and then once I get my teeth into something, the depth of history totally rewards further digging. Seems that'd be even more true of Middle Earth.

I like that taxonomy of D&D roots. My own personal style is a kind of classicist re-interpretation - "if we accept that all the weirdest bits of the D&D canon are all simultaneously true, what emerges from that and how can we make sense of it?" The result tends towards the '70s acid fantasy approach, both because that's where a lot of the weirdest bits came from in the first place, and that approach is just a super-helpful tool for spinning a narrative that encompasses a lot of impossibilities.

Can you suggest specific literary exemplars for "acid fantasy"? Michael Shea's _Nifft the Lean_ might be the closest I can think of - Vance's baroque invention turned up to 11, with a hallucinatory bad-trip urgency. Other than that, I read a bunch of the '70s paperbacks cited in Ron Edwards' _Sorceror and Sword_ and found them mostly disappointing, but am ready to believe there's gold out there I missed.

Here's a description of playing a Blackmoor game with Dave Arneson from another RPG.net thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=286043) that really seems to exemplify the "acid fantasy" thread for me:

3) SciFi / Fantasy blending was the genre. As one player put it, it was D&D meets Naked Lunch.

We encountered goblins weilding mind-control wands to use a purple worm as a digging machine to create tunnels for a mass transit system. The scifi/fantasy blending was very much in the mood and feel - I don't mean steampunk devices or obvious spaceships, but traveling was much more going to an alien place with alien creatures than going into a fantasy forest full of goblins.

We were ALL veteran D&D players and the dungeon felt wrong. You know those crazy architectual weirdness of the old modules. Yeah, some of those are there to make the character's scratch their heads and enhance the "this isn't Kansas" atmosphere. You get the message that dungeons are not treasure troves, they are murder holes and we are fools for coming here.

The further we got from town and the deeper we went, the vestiges of civilization as we knew it were getting less and less. We were not just adventurers, we were explorers and invaders to a different world. I felt much more like the crew of the Nostromo than the Fellowship.

4) It was SO not Tolkein and not the pseudo-medieval Greyhawk. The world was odd and tweaked where magic was used to emulate technology in many aspects, but unlike the "logic" of steampunk science, this was a world were you could just cast spells to do stuff where nobody really understands the magic they wield.

I see Tolkein as more than elves, dwarves and orcs, but a feel and a texture of a flowing high fantasy where good vs. evil is the dominant paradigm. The pseudo-medieval feel of Greyhawk is the sense that there is a class structure and technology transposed from the Dark Ages of Europe. This is not the case in the Blackmoor as it was presented by Dave on that night.

Magic was a tool, but our magic items were presented to us the way artifacts show up in Gamma World: you learn by trying and sometimes it doesn't work the way you hoped. You know that stat block in the book, toss it. My Staff of Power could do more and it could do less, so could potions. We didn't have 100% trust in our magical items "just cuz the book says" and they had a mystical appeal to them.

Dave told us more about this out of game with his home campaign. You know the coolness of Earthdawn's magic items in that you gain more powers as you learn about them? Yeah, Dave explained that every magic item should have a story behind its creation and creator. So I asked him point blank why the HELL wasn't all this cool shit in my freaking books? He smiled and said that back then they figured all people needed was the basic framework and they would add in and discover the rest as they played. Dave said the rules were never meant as the end point….only the beginning.

My response: Dave, you gotta write this stuff down!!!

Re: A Potentially Radical Departure by TavisAllisonTavisAllison, 1216435214|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

James, that's totally wack! No disrespect to Gygax, whose "Role-Playing Mastery" has a linear, hierarchical diagram of the levels of mastery, with "contributions to and activity within the greater gaming community" as the highest ("Grand Mastery") - but in my experience, running convention games or otherwise being plugged into the D&D circuit is no guarantee that you're two whole levels more advanced than "play group excellence and mastery of the role of game master". If that were the case, I wouldn't have suffered through being a player in so many con games that made me want to scratch my eyes out! Sorry Gary, it just ain't all on the same scale. Many of the best DMs I've ever met had no interest whatsoever in the "greatest gaming community"; some of the professional RPG writers I know are no fun to play with, and wouldn't be able to come up with anything but Forgotten Realms novelizations if they had to compile a list of "Inspirational Source Material" (a sad contrast to the awesomeness of the Red Box's list).

Besides which, this site is the kind of achievement by an "individual understanding the needs of all his fellow enthusiasts and contributing toward their ongoing enjoyment of the pursuit" that Gygax would have found worthy of the Grand Mastery accolade.

IO, I have very mixed feelings about 4E. I lucked into being a playtester and so my first experiences were all shaped by having a semi-broken set of rules, a set of players who had a strong adherence to the 3E style of bending over backwards to accomodate AD&D traditions, and an approach to playing that emphasized finding faults over having fun. I started this 4E campaign to try to approach the game without those preconceptions. It's worked in part - I can definitely say that it is possible to have fun playing 4E with a group who wants to do so (instead of edition-warring), and some of the posts mearls have made display a thoughtfulness behind the design and a willingness to communicate about what it's trying to do that we were sorely lacking in the playtest period.

I've heard it said (e.g. by Keith Baker and Ari Marmell) that 4E feels more like the Red Box than any edition since. Having been inspired by this group to learn more about what that means (I too was a blue-box baby, and take it for granted in a way that the minor differences of Red Box helps me see past), I can see where that's coming from. AD&D and 3E are definitely on the side of a drive towards elaborateness for its own sake. It rouses my nerd rage that so much of what I hold dear was scrapped in 4E (our feedback about alignment was scathing) - but I have to admit that Red Box also doesn't have bards, or half-orcs, or a zillion other things that are part of the AD&D canon.

I recently picked up "Best of The Dragon #2," which has a bunch of essays Gygax wrote. One of them concerns the introduction of AD&D, and it's fascinating to see him saying some of the same things that pissed me off about the 4E marketing: It's a different game, accept it or play the old edition. Converting a campaign will require substantial work, and you're better off just starting a new one if you want to use the new rules. The particular needs of a massively multiplayer environment (tournament play back then, RPGA and MMO's nowadays) is a driving force behind the new edition's design.

Even if I accept that 4E is a different game, and acknowlege that it's not really a radical break from D&D tradition but a logical extension of some trends within that tradition, here are the things I have problems with:

- Emphasis of combat over roleplaying. Yes, it's true that there are probably many more pages devoted to "how to roleplay" in 4E than in Red Box. But Red Box is only 64 pages long - if you look at the percentage of words devoted to combat vs. "everything else," 4E's priorities seem hugely skewed. And Red Box gets a lot out of its rules - things like morale and reaction tables pack a ton of gaming implications into a very small space. 4E has advice for roleplaying, not rules - which makes "everything else" seem like fluff. (The skill challenge rules are promising, but the fact that they were added at the 11th hour is painfully obvious.) And the extreme crunchiness of combat means that about 75% of each one of our 4E sessions are typically devoted to a single fight. The rules-lightness of the old school meant that even if you still spent three-quarters of each game fighting, you could get through many different combats - which meant much more of the awesome parts of each one (building up to the conflict, dealing with the unique environment and the abilities of the particular foe, working out the consequences of the fight). 4E's combat is fun in a tactical skirmish-minis way, but there's increasingly a feeling of "gee, are we really still interested in fighting these same dudes two hours later?"

- Lack of creative adjucation. Yes, it's true that this is what Gygax said AD&D was meant to do - you could go to any tournament anywhere and everyone would agree on how to interpret the rules. But seriously, he must have been high. Much of the fun of the old-school (AD&D included) came from how ill-defined things were; you got these inspiringly unpredictable moments where you'd be like, "Hmm, what does happen when your reverse gravity spell interacts with my anti-magic field," and had to fall back on the idea of the game reality, the judgement of the DM, and the collective agreement of the group to keep the good times rolling. This situation *never* happens in 4E. The rules are pinned down to within an inch of their life, and trying to think about game reality causes problems instead of solving them. A good illustration is the command spell. OD&D: you say one word, which the target must obey. 3E: you say one word from the following list, and here's the limits on what might happen. 4E: the target is dazed, and you either knock them prone or push them 1 square. I have only one word to say about how lame that is, and although it could work as a command it doesn't appear on the 3E list :)

Here are the things I like about 4E:

- The underlying design is admirably smooth. New players do seem to pick it up easily; lots of things are streamlined in a way that combines Basic Set ease of play with 3E unifying mechanical principles; the DMG has guidelines for DIY that make it much easier than 3E (e.g. making a monster, figuring out how much damage an improvised stunt or trap does) even if the DIY spirit seems at odds with the "everything your wizard can possibly do with a spell is laid out right here" rigidity of the PHB.

- Monsters are fun to run as well as to create. They each have cool powers that make the enemy's turn in initiative something the DM really looks forward to.

- Ritual spellcasting is a cool idea - another of those old Gygax articles, in defense of Vancian spellcasting, talks about how much of the magic in fantasy literature is a lengthy affair unsuitable for the dungeon environment. Ritual magic is a great way to have that kind of stuff going on.

OK, rant over; I feel better now :)

Re: Session 4: Aug 2, Aug 4, Aug 19? by TavisAllisonTavisAllison, 1216433587|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

(this is cut-and-pasted from an RPG.Net thread)

(Here's where I'm coming from with this: as I see it, there are "three strands" of D&D
#Tolkien-inspired high fantasy
#Howard-inspired pulp fantasy
#1970s-inspired acid fantasy

Each of these strands is awesome in itself, but it's really hard to have a setting that hits all of those notes at once. Replacing Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser with Legolas and Gimli doesn't quite work, because their roots in Christianized Germanic folklore clashes a bit with alienation and titillation of sword & sorcery fiction.

So I've been thinking about these different kinds of settings, and brooding over the opportunity costs. When I got interested in some under-used parts of Middle-Earth…)

Last week I got all hopped up on crazily detailed Tolkien fan sites, and became fascinated with the idea of adventuring in the far east of Middle-Earth, around or past the Sea of Rhun. Very little is known about this place from Tolkien's writings, so I pose the question: "Folks of RPG-Net, if you were jamming on this, what would you do?"

With that in mind, here's what's known

  • The Elves and Men both "awoke" in this area thousands of years ago, and gradually made their way into the western regions of Middle-Earth
  • Mainly, this is where the Easterlings live. They're pretty much Tolkien's human fall-guys: they show up in the West every few centuries and mess up the joint, only to get their asses kicked by the Northmen and the Westrons. They live in "cities of stone," and apparently have many different divisions and factions, including the "Wainriders" and the "Balchoth." The Easterlings are apparently irredeemably evil, and may worship Morgoth (Tolkien's Satan figure, and Sauron's mentor).
  • During the Second Age, the men of Numenor traveled along the coasts, even to the inland seas of Rhun etc., and conquered much of this land.
  • One of the Ring-Wraiths was a king of the Easterlings named Khamul during the Second Age.
  • The area is still populated by "dark elves," (Avari / Moriquendi) who refused to heed the call to go live among Tolkien's god-angels. It's supposed that Morgoth may have harvested these Elves to create the Orcs.
  • The area is also populated by four of the seven Dwarf clans, who live in the Orocarni ("Red Mountains").
  • The Variags, or the people of Khand, may live in this area too; like the Easterlings they're pretty much Evil Men.
  • Most famously, the two "Blue Wizards" traveled into this area and never show up again in the story. These were Maiar, named Alatar and Pallando. Their nature is unclear. At one point, Tolkien wrote, "I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south, …. Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron." Later in life, he changed his mind and they apparently play a pivotal role in defeating Sauron (somehow).
  • Bilbo briefly mentions the "were-worms" of the "Last Desert." Maybe that's for real; maybe that's just Shire superstition.
  • Sauron spent the first millennium or more of the Third Age lurking in this area, rebuilding his power.

Some speculation

  • Ungoliant, the archetypal evil spider, allegedly fled into the uttermost south, where she starves to death and withers away. This is a lame way for Ungoliant to go out. Maybe instead she is worshipped by forgotten cults or monks, and there are cities of great spiders in the East. (Easy way to drag in Lolth and the Drow if you're inclined to go that way.)
  • The Numenoreans may have set up cities along the coast - which fell into the hands of Morgoth-worshipping Black Numenoreans.
  • In the Silmarilion, there's a brief mention of vampires. Whether this is really the undead, or simply giant, intelligent bats, it's not clear. But they don't show up anywhere else, so maybe they're a factor Out East.
  • I kinda like the "Blue Wizards go off the reservation" type of deal. Of the five Istari sent to Middle-Earth, Gandalf opposes Sauron, Saruman is seduced by Sauron, and Rhadagast is too disinterested or intimidated to do much. So what in what ways can these guys fail in their relationship to evil? Maybe one of them becomes so militant in his opposition to the Enemy that he becomes a danger?
  • Somewhere, there's a notion that the Istari have genuine human bodies, but are made "magical" by the Maia spirit. This would imply that the Istari can father children… so maybe there is a bloodline based on one of the Blue Wizards…
  • Perhaps the Entwives migrated East… strange mushroom-women with hallucinogenic spores, dwelling in forgotten swamps and caverns…

(I'm toying with the idea of fitting the Black Peaks in here, as it's pretty much a Tolkien rip-off as it is. I haven't made up my mind yet, but am open to suggestion.)

A Potentially Radical Departure by James_NostackJames_Nostack, 1216423196|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Either the 2nd or the 4th would be great.

Tavis, what do you think of 4E so far? My weekly group is about to start it.

Re: Session 4: Aug 2, Aug 4, Aug 19? by Invincible OverlordInvincible Overlord, 1216423043|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Tavis, sounds good. If Zulgyan is going to be in town on whatever date we select, he's welcome in my game.

Good luck with the GenCon thing! Man, if you're that plugged into the D&D circuit, my game probably won't be up to your standards, but at least it's a chance to kill time throwing some dice around.

Re: Session 4: Aug 2, Aug 4, Aug 19? by James_NostackJames_Nostack, 1216402448|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I would be overjoyed introduce a character on Aug 2. Mondays I have a 4E campaign running until September, and on the 19th I'll be at Gen Con running the Tower of Gygax memorial AD&D event and also a 4E tournament for Goodman, woot!

Also, zulgyan from the OD&D boards will be in NYC from Argentina in August - I've been meaning to email him to plan to get together, and could run these dates by him.

Re: Session 4: Aug 2, Aug 4, Aug 19? by TavisAllisonTavisAllison, 1216398982|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Hey, for a guy with two scores of 6 or below, Maduro's doing pretty well for himself. That reminds me that I need to distribute XP from Session 3; don't think I got around to that.

Re: Session 4: Aug 2, Aug 4, Aug 19? by James_NostackJames_Nostack, 1216395428|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Hi Tavis, sorry there wasn't any feedback on this - I was pretty busy that weekend. I definitely would like to try some 4e (say, 1d6 sessions' worth), but there's not really any good time for me until September. Hopefully someone else here can help you out… I know Skatay was pretty agog over 4e and Invincible Overlord was making disturbingly lascivious comments about it. So there's at least some interest.

Re: Running a 4E One-Shot by James_NostackJames_Nostack, 1216395306|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Does Maduro get to ride again? Both Aug 2 and Aug 19 would work well for me.

Re: Session 4: Aug 2, Aug 4, Aug 19? by ETSmithETSmith, 1216346448|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
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