A Potentially Radical Departure
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started by: James_NostackJames_Nostack
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something I'm kicking around
A Potentially Radical Departure
James_NostackJames_Nostack 1216423196|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

(this is cut-and-pasted from an RPG.Net thread)

(Here's where I'm coming from with this: as I see it, there are "three strands" of D&D
#Tolkien-inspired high fantasy
#Howard-inspired pulp fantasy
#1970s-inspired acid fantasy

Each of these strands is awesome in itself, but it's really hard to have a setting that hits all of those notes at once. Replacing Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser with Legolas and Gimli doesn't quite work, because their roots in Christianized Germanic folklore clashes a bit with alienation and titillation of sword & sorcery fiction.

So I've been thinking about these different kinds of settings, and brooding over the opportunity costs. When I got interested in some under-used parts of Middle-Earth…)

Last week I got all hopped up on crazily detailed Tolkien fan sites, and became fascinated with the idea of adventuring in the far east of Middle-Earth, around or past the Sea of Rhun. Very little is known about this place from Tolkien's writings, so I pose the question: "Folks of RPG-Net, if you were jamming on this, what would you do?"

With that in mind, here's what's known

  • The Elves and Men both "awoke" in this area thousands of years ago, and gradually made their way into the western regions of Middle-Earth
  • Mainly, this is where the Easterlings live. They're pretty much Tolkien's human fall-guys: they show up in the West every few centuries and mess up the joint, only to get their asses kicked by the Northmen and the Westrons. They live in "cities of stone," and apparently have many different divisions and factions, including the "Wainriders" and the "Balchoth." The Easterlings are apparently irredeemably evil, and may worship Morgoth (Tolkien's Satan figure, and Sauron's mentor).
  • During the Second Age, the men of Numenor traveled along the coasts, even to the inland seas of Rhun etc., and conquered much of this land.
  • One of the Ring-Wraiths was a king of the Easterlings named Khamul during the Second Age.
  • The area is still populated by "dark elves," (Avari / Moriquendi) who refused to heed the call to go live among Tolkien's god-angels. It's supposed that Morgoth may have harvested these Elves to create the Orcs.
  • The area is also populated by four of the seven Dwarf clans, who live in the Orocarni ("Red Mountains").
  • The Variags, or the people of Khand, may live in this area too; like the Easterlings they're pretty much Evil Men.
  • Most famously, the two "Blue Wizards" traveled into this area and never show up again in the story. These were Maiar, named Alatar and Pallando. Their nature is unclear. At one point, Tolkien wrote, "I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south, …. Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron." Later in life, he changed his mind and they apparently play a pivotal role in defeating Sauron (somehow).
  • Bilbo briefly mentions the "were-worms" of the "Last Desert." Maybe that's for real; maybe that's just Shire superstition.
  • Sauron spent the first millennium or more of the Third Age lurking in this area, rebuilding his power.

Some speculation

  • Ungoliant, the archetypal evil spider, allegedly fled into the uttermost south, where she starves to death and withers away. This is a lame way for Ungoliant to go out. Maybe instead she is worshipped by forgotten cults or monks, and there are cities of great spiders in the East. (Easy way to drag in Lolth and the Drow if you're inclined to go that way.)
  • The Numenoreans may have set up cities along the coast - which fell into the hands of Morgoth-worshipping Black Numenoreans.
  • In the Silmarilion, there's a brief mention of vampires. Whether this is really the undead, or simply giant, intelligent bats, it's not clear. But they don't show up anywhere else, so maybe they're a factor Out East.
  • I kinda like the "Blue Wizards go off the reservation" type of deal. Of the five Istari sent to Middle-Earth, Gandalf opposes Sauron, Saruman is seduced by Sauron, and Rhadagast is too disinterested or intimidated to do much. So what in what ways can these guys fail in their relationship to evil? Maybe one of them becomes so militant in his opposition to the Enemy that he becomes a danger?
  • Somewhere, there's a notion that the Istari have genuine human bodies, but are made "magical" by the Maia spirit. This would imply that the Istari can father children… so maybe there is a bloodline based on one of the Blue Wizards…
  • Perhaps the Entwives migrated East… strange mushroom-women with hallucinogenic spores, dwelling in forgotten swamps and caverns…

(I'm toying with the idea of fitting the Black Peaks in here, as it's pretty much a Tolkien rip-off as it is. I haven't made up my mind yet, but am open to suggestion.)

unfold A Potentially Radical Departure by James_NostackJames_Nostack, 1216423196|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: A Potentially Radical Departure
TavisAllisonTavisAllison 1216435214|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I'm nowhere near that level of Tolkien scholarship, but I certainly dig the desire to root around in the obscure corners of classic fantasy & see what pops up. I've really enjoyed playing in Greyhawk because one of the other players is an expert - I can say "Okay, what's the story on this thing over here", and then once I get my teeth into something, the depth of history totally rewards further digging. Seems that'd be even more true of Middle Earth.

I like that taxonomy of D&D roots. My own personal style is a kind of classicist re-interpretation - "if we accept that all the weirdest bits of the D&D canon are all simultaneously true, what emerges from that and how can we make sense of it?" The result tends towards the '70s acid fantasy approach, both because that's where a lot of the weirdest bits came from in the first place, and that approach is just a super-helpful tool for spinning a narrative that encompasses a lot of impossibilities.

Can you suggest specific literary exemplars for "acid fantasy"? Michael Shea's _Nifft the Lean_ might be the closest I can think of - Vance's baroque invention turned up to 11, with a hallucinatory bad-trip urgency. Other than that, I read a bunch of the '70s paperbacks cited in Ron Edwards' _Sorceror and Sword_ and found them mostly disappointing, but am ready to believe there's gold out there I missed.

Here's a description of playing a Blackmoor game with Dave Arneson from another RPG.net thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=286043) that really seems to exemplify the "acid fantasy" thread for me:

3) SciFi / Fantasy blending was the genre. As one player put it, it was D&D meets Naked Lunch.

We encountered goblins weilding mind-control wands to use a purple worm as a digging machine to create tunnels for a mass transit system. The scifi/fantasy blending was very much in the mood and feel - I don't mean steampunk devices or obvious spaceships, but traveling was much more going to an alien place with alien creatures than going into a fantasy forest full of goblins.

We were ALL veteran D&D players and the dungeon felt wrong. You know those crazy architectual weirdness of the old modules. Yeah, some of those are there to make the character's scratch their heads and enhance the "this isn't Kansas" atmosphere. You get the message that dungeons are not treasure troves, they are murder holes and we are fools for coming here.

The further we got from town and the deeper we went, the vestiges of civilization as we knew it were getting less and less. We were not just adventurers, we were explorers and invaders to a different world. I felt much more like the crew of the Nostromo than the Fellowship.

4) It was SO not Tolkein and not the pseudo-medieval Greyhawk. The world was odd and tweaked where magic was used to emulate technology in many aspects, but unlike the "logic" of steampunk science, this was a world were you could just cast spells to do stuff where nobody really understands the magic they wield.

I see Tolkein as more than elves, dwarves and orcs, but a feel and a texture of a flowing high fantasy where good vs. evil is the dominant paradigm. The pseudo-medieval feel of Greyhawk is the sense that there is a class structure and technology transposed from the Dark Ages of Europe. This is not the case in the Blackmoor as it was presented by Dave on that night.

Magic was a tool, but our magic items were presented to us the way artifacts show up in Gamma World: you learn by trying and sometimes it doesn't work the way you hoped. You know that stat block in the book, toss it. My Staff of Power could do more and it could do less, so could potions. We didn't have 100% trust in our magical items "just cuz the book says" and they had a mystical appeal to them.

Dave told us more about this out of game with his home campaign. You know the coolness of Earthdawn's magic items in that you gain more powers as you learn about them? Yeah, Dave explained that every magic item should have a story behind its creation and creator. So I asked him point blank why the HELL wasn't all this cool shit in my freaking books? He smiled and said that back then they figured all people needed was the basic framework and they would add in and discover the rest as they played. Dave said the rules were never meant as the end point….only the beginning.

My response: Dave, you gotta write this stuff down!!!

unfold Re: A Potentially Radical Departure by TavisAllisonTavisAllison, 1216435214|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: A Potentially Radical Departure
James_NostackJames_Nostack 1216473452|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Tavis, I'm not especially aware of literary influences for the Acid Fantasy style, though I'd guess Moorcock's stuff, particularly Elric, would be an influence, (and maybe Zelazny's Amber?). Nifft the Lean certainly hits on this too; Wagner's Bloodstone is definitely on this list, though I haven't read the others in the series. Witherwing is another example.

But probably this is just the overall 1970's culture: a mish-mash of rock music (infected with Tolkien imagery in late 60's), comic books (veering desperately away from superheroes in the early 70's to do sci-fi, horror, and fantasy stuff), proto-Star Wars sci-fi movies, whatever was left of New Wave sci-fi literature, martial arts fever, etc.

unfold Re: A Potentially Radical Departure by James_NostackJames_Nostack, 1216473452|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: A Potentially Radical Departure
James_NostackJames_Nostack 1217618746|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

D&D Acid Fantasy, courtesy of YouTube - greatness itself could not be any greater

last edited on 1217620684|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by James_Nostack + show more
unfold Re: A Potentially Radical Departure by James_NostackJames_Nostack, 1217618746|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
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