Mo' Money Mo' Manors

Summary:

The economic mini-game

Mo' Money Mo' Manors

James_Nostack 26 May 2012 19:02

I have largely ignored the economic mini-game in Pendragon because Sir Carabad never earned a lot of cash, and never really wanted to spend it on anything. Plus, for some reason, even the management of fictional money befuddles me. But I think here's the deal.

Social Class

Knights come in a couple of different social strata.

• Household Knights. These guys live in the manor house of their liege, sort of like household bouncers or guards.
• Vassal Knights. These knights own one or just a few manors. They're land-owners, and possess a hall, a modest amount of farmland, a few villages, and maybe a few hundred serfs. The original batch of knights all debuted at this rank.
• Banneret Knights. These knights own several manors, some of which are in turn held by vassal knights. The Banneret basically is the lowest rank of land-owner who commands the allegiance of other land-owners. I think after marrying Lady Madule, Sir Carabad is a Banneret, but I don't know about the other knights.
• Baron, Earl, Duke, etc. These are very significant noblemen who own dozens if not hundreds of manors. These ranks are probably outside our reach for a long time…

Economic Circumstances

How high on the hog you live correlates closely with your social rank, but not always exactly.

• Impoverished. Less than 3 Librum a year. This is less than half of what a knight needs to earn to maintain his standard of living. Carabad was impoverished the year Arthur married Guinevere, and had to borrow money from Pellandres to have something nice to wear to the wedding.
• Poor. Less than 6 Librum a year. Not enough to live on.
• Ordinary. Around 6 Librum a year. Enough to meet expenses.
• Rich. Around 10 Librum a year. If you blow this money on finery and conspicuous consumption, you gain that much Glory.

Re: Mo' Money Mo' Manors

skidoo 26 May 2012 21:34

I just bought Book of the Manor. It's a system to spend your loot to earn glory and/or checks and/or a little more librum down the road. It turns that weather-check portion of Winter phase into a bigger mini-game. Hervis is about 70 glory points away from the 5000 mark, so I'll be looking to blow some of his cash to put him over the hump.

Hervis has been living as a Rich knight for the past few sessions. According to my reading of the rules, ifyou spend 10 librum per year to maintain a Rich circumstance, you get glory equal to the entire amount of your expenditure, not just the overage from 6 Librum. So, if you spend 10 Librum, you earn 10 glory, not 4; if you spend 8 Librum, you get bupkis. Does that line up with everyone else?

I find the rules for attaining Bannaret a little vague. According to the book: a Bannaret must "hold several manors and estates, and have at least three vassal knights of his own holding land from him, but typically has eight to twelve. He also has a hall much nicer than a vassal knight, but usually not a fortified estate or castle." That sentence is unclear about the actual numbers. I see two possible readings:

1. 5-7 manors personally owned, and 3-12 vassals, and a hall better than a Simple Hall (either a Large or Great Hall?);
2. or 8-12 manors owned, at least 3 vassals, and a better hall.

Sternum may interpret it differently, though.

I'm hoping Hervis gets to Bannaret before he buys the farm, and I told Sternum that. He said we'd work toward it in-game. I think you have to declare it as an actual goal.

Re: Mo' Money Mo' Manors

James_Nostack 26 May 2012 23:11

According to my reading of the rules, if you spend 10 librum per year to maintain a Rich circumstance, you get glory equal to the entire amount of your expenditure, not just the overage from 6 Librum. So, if you spend 10 Librum, you earn 10 glory, not 4; if you spend 8 Librum, you get bupkis. Does that line up with everyone else?

That's my reading too, for whatever it's worth.

I see two possible readings:
5-7 manors personally owned, and 3-12 vassals, and a hall better than a Simple Hall (either a Large or Great Hall?);
or 8-12 manors owned, at least 3 vassals, and a better hall.

Hmm. Here's the text from 4e, which I believe is the default rule-set we're using in play:

A banneret holds knight holds several manors and estates. He must have at least three other knights holding land from him as well, but typically about seven or eight.

(emphasis added). To me, that "as well" implies that to become a banneret, you need a number of manors equal to "several owned directly plus at least 3 owned indirectly."

Here's the text from 1e, which in this and other rules appears to be somewhat more difficult than 4e:

A banneret knight holds at least 10 hydes of land. He usually has three other knights holding land from him as well.

And the text from 5.1e:

A knight banneret holds several manors and estates. He must have at least three vassal knights of his own holding land from him, but typically has eight to twelve.

I don't have any of the supplements, which may shed more light on it. All of these versions agree that a Banneret has a nice hall, though seldom fortified.

So how many manors? In 1e, looks like 10 + 3 or more. In 4e, "several" + 3 or more (typically 7-8). In 5.1e, "several + 3 or more (typically 8-12). A vassal knight earns around 6 Librum from his manor in a typical year. A banneret, however, earns around 30 Librum or more (4e pg 127; 5.1e pg 135). That sounds like around 5 manors, which does a pretty good job of reconciling the various editions. In 1e, you need a total of 13 or more including vassals; in 4e you'll need a typical total of around 12-13 including vassals, and in 5.1e that's typically 13+ including vassals.

I guess the real answer is, it's whatever Sternum says it is.

Last edited on 26 May 2012 23:14 by James_Nostack Show more

Re: Mo' Money Mo' Manors

James_Nostack 26 May 2012 23:35

So, your social class determines how much land you own, which then usually determines how much money you've earned in a year. What does this mean for your annual Glory?

Glory from Economic Circumstance

The first time you get promoted to a new social class - i.e., from a vassal to a banneret, or from a banneret to a baron - you get a one-time Glory award.

You gain Glory each year for the income from your manor, typically around 6 Librum per year per manor. A Banneret typically earns about 30 Glory per year or more, which implies a direct income of at least 30 Librum. Glory from these sources is capped at 100 per year.

You also gain Glory for frittering away money by living large.

Conspicuous Consumption. Generally, each 1 L spent gets 1 Glory. However, money spent over 100 L gains only 1 Glory per 10 L spent. So a gift of 120 L would gain the giver 102 Glory.

(4e pg 121). I'm interpreting "conspicuous consumption" to mean, "Blowing lots of money on inessential things," but I'm not sure that's correct.

And also gain Glory for wildly excessive upkeep. I tend to think of this as a specific example of the Conspicuous Consumption award:

Quality of Maintenance. This Glory is received annually. It equals the amount of extra money spent on the knight's maintenance… . Ordinary = none, Rich = 10/year, Superlative = 15/year.

(4e pg 121).

So basically, you get Glory for earning money, and you also gain Glory for wasting money.

Re: Mo' Money Mo' Manors

skidoo 27 May 2012 01:49

I guess the real answer is, it's whatever Sternum says it is.

Indeed. He's said we favor 4e when there's a difference in rules interpretation.

I don't have any of the supplements, which may shed more light on it. All of these versions agree that a Banneret has a nice hall, though seldom fortified.

Book of the Manor doesn't clarify on Vassal vs. Banneret, and skimming the Nocturnal forums has so far yielded little. The Book of the Manor has shed some light on the "much nicer hall" requirement, in that there are grades of hall by cost: They are:

1. Simple Hall, Wood. Cost: £15. We all started out with one.
2. Simple Hall, Stone. £26. The difference from Wood is its Defensive Value (1), which only matters if you're playing the "Complete Landholding System" mini-game (protects you from bandits).
3. Large Hall, Wood. £29. Annual Glory of 1.
4. Large Hall, Stone. £40. DV of 1, Annual Glory of 1.
5. Great Hall. £60. DV of 2. Annual Glory of 2.
6. Stately Manor. £300. 1-time glory bonus of 100, Annual Glory of 35, Annual Maintenence £35.

Stately Manor is extremely difficult for Knights to reach, according to the rules. So I imagine a Bannaret probably needs a minimum of a Large Hall.

A Banneret typically earns about 30 Glory per year or more, which implies a direct income of at least 30 Librum. Glory from these sources is capped at 100 per year.

Each manor earns £6 and 6 Glory, but the manors run by knights vassalized to the Player Knight do not earn Librum, just glory. That's how I read it. Is that correct?

So basically, you get Glory for earning money, and you also gain Glory for wasting money.

The 1 £ = 1 Glory equation (for spending and earning) is the baseline in Book of the Manor. However, if you get specific about your frittering, you can earn checks and rolls for checks, and that is an in-game advantage to using this supplement:

1. If you build a hospital on your manor for £20, you get no glory for the expenditure, an annual glory award of 4, and a roll to your Merciful trait. If you make the roll, you check the trait, and can roll again to increase it during the winter phase;
2. If you build a Large Mews for £2, plus £1 annual maintenence, you get an annual glory of 1, and an automatic check to Falconry;
3. My personal favorite: Torture Chamber, £20, £1 per year for Rack Wax, Check Cruel, Roll Intrigue, Lose 1 point of Honor per year!

Any player that uses the Book of the Manor will have more opportunity for advancement than a player that doesn't. There's more opportunity for disaster too, but only if you play the "Complete Landholding System" mini-game. In that game, weather, banditry, raids and fate all conspire to destroy your precious manorial improvements and turn you home into a real money pit. If you just use the "Narrative Economic System" (which is what we've used so far) the only misfortune is bad weather, and the consequences of that can be bought off for a few Librum.

I would really like to take this subsystem for a test drive, but since it provides possible advantages (and possible misfortunes) that other players would not have access to, I'll abide by a Conspicuous Consumption rule of £1 = 1 Glory, if that's the way we want to go.

Last edited on 27 May 2012 01:50 by skidoo Show more

Re: Mo' Money Mo' Manors

James_Nostack 28 May 2012 01:24

Unless I have mis-counted, Sir Carabad isn't quite a Banneret after all. If the Lady Madule page is correct, Carabad owns 2 manors of his own, 2 directly through Lady Madule, and then 5 through sub-vassalage. So he still needs another 3-4 manors before he truly qualifies for the next rank.

(Though he is probably very close, he is famously modest, and must disclaim a rank he hasn't officially earned.)

Re: Mo' Money Mo' Manors

Sternum 29 May 2012 13:15

Traditionally money and nobility are separate things. Penniless nobles and rich merchants make for great stories because each wants what the other has. Therefore, knights can't buy manors with their filthy lucre, but are awarded them for loyal service to their lord. They can spend their money on pimping out their manors, however, which I believe is represented by the "spend money and receive glory" rule.

The most likely scenario for Sir Hervis to attain banneret, in my opinion, is for Earl Robert to assign him vassalage of some newly knighted men who have recently inherited their own manors. This is based on the assumption that Sir Hervis has something to teach these raw recruits about chivalry and knighthood. Given his recent capture of Sir Brus sans Pitie, this is not that far-fetched. I would initially suggest maintaining high chivalric traits while accruing a goal of glory would seal the deal.

Another option is to find a new liege in some god-forsaken corner of the kingdom. Lords like King Anguish of Ireland or the Centurion King of Malahaut are always handing out manors because the Picts or the Irishmen next door keep the property value low. It's very much the Arthurian equivalent of homesteading the wild west.

As far as manor management goes, the game has entire books dedicated to the subject. These are generally mini games. We've usually glossed over it because Winter Phase tends to fall at the end of the session when everyone is scrambling for the door. Now that our knights are middle-aged, perhaps it would be good to settle down and figure out all of the little details we've been skipping. It also might be something worth visiting on the play-by-post boards. I don't own the Book of the Manor, but if you think that it looks like fun, I'll pick it up.

Last edited on 29 May 2012 13:21 by Sternum Show more

Re: Mo' Money Mo' Manors

skidoo 29 May 2012 17:41

Sternum, I would like to try the Manor book out, so if you're cool with the extra-checks issue, let's do a round on the PbP board before next session.

P.S. What's your call on PK vassalizing other PK knights?

Re: Mo' Money Mo' Manors

James_Nostack 30 May 2012 00:24

One idea: Silchester sounds like it's in an uproar these days. A land-hungry knight might be able to grab a chunk of that territory. Alternately, if neighboring Salisbury loses knights in border-raids, maybe Earl Robert owes us a solid…?

Alternately, maybe if we really distinguish ourselves in the European wars - competing against guys like Gawaine, Lancelot, and so on - perhaps Arthur will reward us with land.

Re: Mo' Money Mo' Manors

skidoo 01 Jun 2012 21:12

I've created a page with a simulation of play for this book: Example of Play for the Book of the Manor

We can use it to clarify rules, correct misunderstandings, and shake out the kinks before incorporating the system into the campaign. Sternum, I've put some of my own questions at the bottom so you can set me straight on some things. It's ongoing, but I hope to have it completed by tonight. I only included the 1st year of simulation, because it becomes eye-crossingly dull quick. But let's please continue discussion about it here. Here are my Questions So Far:

1. Does a Knight get glory for the annual maintenance costs?
2. This “one improvement per year at cost, cost x1.5 for every one after” rule seems weird. It makes sense for large construction projects like a manor or a church, but it seems to me that a knight could sponsor a jongleur troupe, construct a hermit shack, and acquire a herd of sheep all in one year, without taxing his resources. Can we just use that rule for large construction?
3. On a similar note, surely one can dig a ditch AND turn it into a moat in the same year?
4. I feel like there’s some overlap between the Pious Trait and the Passion of Love: God. I understand they work differently in-game, but it irks me.
5. The Knight seems to get checks and rolls on Traits and Skills, even when they’re not actually present at the manor? All I have to do is dream of my Large Mews, and I check Falconry?
6. We don’t want to do this for every manor. Dow we just say that other manors earn £6 and call it square? Or do we go through the Narrative Economic System for those?
7. How is the Wife’s advancement handled? A Steward or other Professional improves by 1 point in their key skill every year until it reaches 15; after that, the skill improves with a roll of 1 on 1d6 during the Experience Checks in Winter Phase. Does the wife advance in the same way? Does her Industry advance too, or does she use the check system if she successfully performs her industry solo? This subsystem is showing once again that without women, men would be digging ditches around rubble.
8. In order for the defenses of a Manor to mitigate conflict and property destruction, a Siege Skill must be rolled successfully. None of us have this skill, as it isn't in the core book. I hired an engineer, who has the Siege skill. Is that what we have to do, or should we hand-wave this rule?

Last edited on 02 Jun 2012 03:45 by skidoo Show more